- Question
Prabhuji, one question that came up is related to the statement of Self being witness of the three states. How can Self witness Sleep? There is no experience and no proof that consciousness exists in sleep. We only know when we are awake and it is an inference.
Sri Prabhuji:
Very good question. Understanding the deep sleep state is important.
Let us look at the experience of sleep.
1. Is sleep an experience? What is the experience in sleep? Is it a state of no experience?
2. Deep sleep is a state of deep relaxation and peace. Because of this deep relaxation and peace every living being seeks peace of sleep. Absence of sleep causes psychological disturbance.
3. When someone wakes up from sleep he says I had blissful sleep/sound sleep. Is this statement based on inference or experience? Everybody has clarity about peace in deep sleep. Unless it is your own experience of sleep how can anybody make a confidant statement about nature of sleep. Not a single human being has doubts about peace in deep sleep. Any inference will require deliberation. Peace in sleep is not inference but experience. The peace is called Ananda
4. Any inference will have element of doubt associated with it. For example there is smoke on mountain top and inference is where there is smoke there must be fire. But there can be doubt – the smoke can be due to chemical not fire. About peace in sleep not a single person in 8 billion people have doubt and hence it is not inference but experience.
5. When we ask someone what do you see in sleep. He will say “nothing”. Nothingness is a statement of fact. It is not inference. Inference will have an element of doubt. In sleep there was an awareness of absence of things (nothing). Hence sleep is a state of awareness of absence of objects and not absence of awareness. The awareness is called chit.
6. When a sleeping person’s name is called he will wake up. This means there was awareness in sleep not absence of awareness.
7. Does a person exist in sleep? Obviously he does. Otherwise person who slept and woke up are not same. The existence is called sat
8. Thus sleep is a state of existence – consciousness – bliss (sat-chit-anand). In sleep I cannot express myself and something. If I do that I will wake up and no longer sleeping. Sleep is a state of experience without expression. We should not mix up expression, experience and existence.
Student: Sir, on point 3 I request you to kindly clarify.
It is true that when I wake up from deep sleep i feel peaceful, refreshed and blissful.
But this blissfulness is not experienced during deep sleep but experienced at the moment of waking state, just after waking up from sleep and we infer and derive that it must be the result of Good Deep Sleep i had before waking up.
Also during sleep there is no experience of objects, space or time, so we cannot have peace as an separate experience during sleep but we are in our real true nature as Peace or Ananda, which we express as experience of bliss and peace after waking up.
Sri Prabhuji: “But this blissfulness is not experienced during deep sleep but experienced at the moment of waking state, just after waking up from sleep and we infer and derive that it must be the result of Good Deep Sleep before waking up.”
# This is not a fact. Blissfulness experienced after waking up is called relaxation. It is no way comparable to peace in sleep. No person in the world has any doubt about peace in sleep. Peace in sleep is not an inference – actual experience.
“Also during sleep there is no experience of objects, space or time, so we cannot have peace as an separate experience during sleep but we are in our real true nature as Peace or Ananda, which we express as experience of bliss and peace after waking up.”
# There are two types of experiences – experience of objects and experience of SELF. Happiness from the experience of objects requires mind. It is called – vishyayananda. In sleep there are no objects and no mind. The peace experience is the peace of SELF – called swarupa ananda. Swarupa ananda does not need a mind.
Student: Sir, kindly also clarify when you say peace of the SELF.
1. Is Peace or Ananda a separate experience, experienced by the SELF or the SELF itself.
2. What is this relaxation, we feel after waking from deep sleep, is it the Consciousness or bliss filtered through our mind.
Sri Prabhuji:
1. “Is Peace or Ananda a separate experience, experienced by the SELF or the SELF itself.”
The word Ananda comes from “Ananta” which means limitless – no limitation of space, time, or objects. The word Ananda translated into regional languages gives a feeling of “lot of happiness” – this is not correct. We can use the word “Peace” instead to denote limitless SELF. It is not a separate experience. It is the nature of SELF itself – limitlessness.
2. “What is this relaxation, we feel after waking from deep sleep, is it the Consciousness or bliss filtered through our mind.”
Relaxation is the reflection of peace of SELF in body, mind, intellect.
Student:
On the same line of thought also please clarify the meaning of the word “Atmajyothi”, The Light of the Self. Is the SELF different from the LIGHT.
Sri Prabhuji
Prajnanam Brahma – Awareness is Brahman. Awareness is light. SELF is light – atma jyoti. All perceptions, thoughts, feelings ( inner and outer) are seen in this light. Hence the light “of” the self is used with reference to the manifest universe.
Ego thinks I am seeing the world. It is communication to the ego that the world is seen in the Light “of” the SELF.
Student: That is, the world is not separate from the self but is the product of the SELF and resides in the SELF and is known by the SELF. Till ego understands that “Light of the SELF” is none other than SELF itself. Ego is like a shadow which will disappear in the presence of this light of understanding.
Sri Prabhuji: Yes
Student: Dear Prabhuji,
Reference to today morning’s talk and discussion on Viveka Chudamani…
There are two different concepts that is confusing me regarding deep sleep.
- In the previous teaching (based on Mandukya Upanishad), I have heard that Prajna is Ishwara. In this model, you mentioned that there are three Devas at the individual (veshti) level – Virat, Taijasa and Prajna. At the universal level, the Devas are Vishwa, Hiranyagarbha and Iswara. I recall hearing that these Devas are intermediary states and cannot be taken as Jivas in the three states.
- Viveka Chudamani now introduces Brahman, Maya, Iswara and the world at the universal level; and Jiva, Avidya and Atman at the individual level. What relationship has Iswara of Mandukya versus Iswara of Viveka Chudamani? Can Prajna cited in Mandukya be equated to Maya expounded in Viveka Chudamani? How do we fit in the bodies (gross, subtle and causal) in these two models? Is Karana Sharira avidya or Prajna avidya?
Can these two models be reconciled or correlated at all or is it better to keep them separate? The trouble of keeping them independent is the clash in these models that needs to be resolved.
Sri Prabhuji: Prajna is Ishvara. At the causal level there is no differentiation between individual and universal (vyasti and samasti).
Prajna is not Maya. Prajna is the knower. Maya is the universal causal body – causal world of samashti.- karana prapancha.
Prajna, Taijas, vishva use causal body, subtle body and gross body for experiencing.
Prajnas experience is I don’t myself, I don’t experience anything. This is view of the waker about prajna. In waters view prajna has ignorance- Avidya.
Student: Prajna is the knower of causal body or maya?
Sri Prabhuji: Causal body is individual. Maya is universal. In deep sleep there is no difference.
Student: Since Vishva, Taijasa and Prajna are mutually exclusive, how valid is Vishva’s interpretation of Prajna? The conclusion is clouded by one’s non acceptance of the other two, isn’t it?
Sri Prabhuji: The waker judging sleeper or dreamer is erroneous. Correcting the wakers knowledge is atmajnana.
Student: So the waker has to be calibrated that since he was not present in deep sleep, he cannot really comment on Prajna. Really the one who is present in that particular state can be the only one to authentically state what that is. So it is only the witness that can say for sure what happens in the waking, dreaming and deep sleep state is, isn’t it? This is the teaching?
But the catch is that witness does not say anything; it only sees. The one who sees does not say anything. The one who says does not see the other thing!!!
Sri Prabhuji: Witness is the substratum of waker, dreamer, deep sleep states. Witness is only common to all. Ego claims the knowledge of the witness in the waking state. Ego says “I did not see anything”. Waker ego takes the position of sakshi and claims knowledge of deep sleep state.